Kutte kontakt med familien ?

[Pils]

På 20.6.2019 den 2.36, AnonymBruker skrev:

Jeg er en norsk kvinne som kommer fra et ganske strengt kristen miljø. 

Jeg er forelsket i en norsk mann, som ikke er kristen og familien min godtar ikke at vi gifter oss. 

Jeg fikk beskjed om å enten velge han eller de. Konsekvensa av at jeg velger han blir at jeg mister familien min for godt. 

Ingen mer bestemor å prate med og ingen mer foreldre eller onkler. Jeg kommer til å stå helt alene i verden. 

 

Hva burde jeg gjøre ? Han eller de ? 😢

 

Er det flere som har vært i en lignende situasjon ? 

Anonymkode: 98eb6...6fa

Les bibelen nøye for deg selv så finner du at Jesus er ganske forbanna på slike menigheter/sekter...

Jeg har sett selv i bibelen når Jesus var på jorden at han spurte menigheten om hvorfor ekskluderer dere deres bror? 

Og igjennom bibelen peker og uthever han kjærligheten som det viktige og opphøye igjennom hele bibelen...    Bibelen sier også pass dere for sekter...  

Jeg vet at dette er vanskelig situasjon, men jeg vet utifra det jeg har lest i bibelen at ekskludering er ikke fra GUD , men fra menighetenes styre...  

 

[Betti 11]

18 timer siden, Surrehuggu skrev:

Unnskyld at jeg sier det, men hvis det finnes noe helvete er det nok de som bør frykte det for sin egen del... Makan til vrangforestillede og farlige mennesker!

Man burde anmeldt slike foreldre til barnevernet. Hvis du kjenner til noen i menigheten som bedriver slik din familie har gjort mot deg, bør du sende bekymringsmelding til barnevernet. 

Helt enig. Jeg kan ikke forstår foreldrene dine. Religionen er viktigere enn datters lykke? Når du blir truet fins det politi. Det er trist at det fins sånn i 2019.

[Hodestups]

På 20.6.2019 den 2.36, AnonymBruker skrev:

Jeg er en norsk kvinne som kommer fra et ganske strengt kristen miljø. 

Jeg er forelsket i en norsk mann, som ikke er kristen og familien min godtar ikke at vi gifter oss. 

Jeg fikk beskjed om å enten velge han eller de. Konsekvensa av at jeg velger han blir at jeg mister familien min for godt. 

Ingen mer bestemor å prate med og ingen mer foreldre eller onkler. Jeg kommer til å stå helt alene i verden. 

 

Hva burde jeg gjøre ? Han eller de ? 😢

 

Er det flere som har vært i en lignende situasjon ? 

Anonymkode: 98eb6...6fa

Men "ikke kristen", hva betyr det egentlig? Har han ikke tatt stilling til det spørsmålet (enda), eller hater han kristne eller hva? Det er ganske vesentlig å få flere opplysninger om denne mannen før man svarer... For "ikke kristen" dekker omtrent alle som ikke tror på, eller ikke vil tro på, Gud. 

Jeg hadde definitivt valgt familien.

[Lillemus]

3 minutter siden, Hodestups skrev:

Men "ikke kristen", hva betyr det egentlig? Har han ikke tatt stilling til det spørsmålet (enda), eller hater han kristne eller hva? Det er ganske vesentlig å få flere opplysninger om denne mannen før man svarer... For "ikke kristen" dekker omtrent alle som ikke tror på, eller ikke vil tro på, Gud. 

Jeg hadde definitivt valgt familien.

Senere i tråden sier hun at han er jøde, men sier ikke noe om hvorvidt han er "utøvende" eller ikke.

[Hodestups]

2 minutter siden, Lillemus skrev:

Senere i tråden sier hun at han er jøde, men sier ikke noe om hvorvidt han er "utøvende" eller ikke.

Ååja, sorry, leste ikke videre. Vel, da skjønner jeg jo godt at familien ikke vil ha noe med ham å gjøre, jøder hater i utgangspunktet kristne. Det er liksom deres nemesis.

Så krasjen er 100% forståelig.

[Lillemus]

46 minutter siden, Hodestups skrev:

Ååja, sorry, leste ikke videre. Vel, da skjønner jeg jo godt at familien ikke vil ha noe med ham å gjøre, jøder hater i utgangspunktet kristne. Det er liksom deres nemesis.

Så krasjen er 100% forståelig.

Hvorfor hater jøder kristne? *googler litt* Forstår jeg dette rett - jødene tror på det gamle testamentet, men ikke på Jesus og det nye testamentet? Sånn veldig kort oppsummert...

Endret 26. juni 2019 av Lillemus

[Betti 11]

59 minutter siden, Hodestups skrev:

Ååja, sorry, leste ikke videre. Vel, da skjønner jeg jo godt at familien ikke vil ha noe med ham å gjøre, jøder hater i utgangspunktet kristne. Det er liksom deres nemesis.

Så krasjen er 100% forståelig.

Det skulle ikke være i 2019. Vi er alle mennesker. Det er nok krig i verden. Vi kan komme godt overens i vårt sammfunn, men i blant fins det mennesker som ikke passer inn i vårt sammfunn. Hver enkelte av oss kan gjøre noe med det. Strekker ut en hånd. 

[Hodestups]

26 minutter siden, Lillemus skrev:

Hvorfor hater jøder kristne? *googler litt* Forstår jeg dette rett - jødene tror på det gamle testamentet, men ikke på Jesus og det nye testamentet? Sånn veldig kort oppsummert...

Fordi kristne tror på Jesus Enkelt og greit. Det gjelder selvsagt ikke alle (jøder), men er svært utbredt. Dessverre.

Endret 26. juni 2019 av Hodestups

[Hodestups]

4 minutter siden, Betti 11 skrev:

Det skulle ikke være i 2019. Vi er alle mennesker. Det er nok krig i verden. Vi kan komme godt overens i vårt sammfunn, men i blant fins det mennesker som ikke passer inn i vårt sammfunn. Hver enkelte av oss kan gjøre noe med det. Strekker ut en hånd. 

Selvsagt, men alt kommer an på situasjonen; du vil ikke sitte rundt et bord med noen som kritiserer din tro (eller ikke tro)? Kommer selvsagt an på hvordan det gjøres, spørsmål skal stilles og besvares etc. 

Og jeg er helt enig i at det er nok krig i verden. 

[Betti 11]

Akkurat nå, Hodestups skrev:

Selvsagt, men alt kommer an på situasjonen; du vil ikke sitte rundt et bord med noen som kritiserer din tro (eller ikke tro)? Kommer selvsagt an på hvordan det gjøres, spørsmål skal stilles og besvares etc. 

Og jeg er helt enig i at det er nok krig i verden. 

Det er viktig å se menneske ikke religion. For meg er det veldig vanskelig med muslimer, fordi de har et helt annet syn i livet. Jeg kan ikke tenke meg å bli venn, men jeg behandler alle likt. Barna mi er venn med flere. Foreldrene er ikke interessert å ha kontakt. 

[Hodestups]

Akkurat nå, Betti 11 skrev:

Det er viktig å se menneske ikke religion. For meg er det veldig vanskelig med muslimer, fordi de har et helt annet syn i livet. Jeg kan ikke tenke meg å bli venn, men jeg behandler alle likt. Barna mi er venn med flere. Foreldrene er ikke interessert å ha kontakt. 

Ja, selvsagt, men religionen er ganske viktig da den definerer deg som person (og her inkluderer jeg ateisme også). 

 

[Betti 11]

5 minutter siden, Hodestups skrev:

Ja, selvsagt, men religionen er ganske viktig da den definerer deg som person (og her inkluderer jeg ateisme også). 

 

Hvor mye plass religionen har er uviktig. Når interesser og meninger er for annerledes, kan det ikke gå bra. 

[Hodestups]

2 minutter siden, Betti 11 skrev:

Hvor mye plass religionen har er uviktig. Når interesser og meninger er for annerledes, kan det ikke gå bra. 

Nei, det går ikke bra da, med mindre andre er åpne for at "okey, du er uenig med meg i den saken, la oss finne noe vi er enige om istedet". Kanskje begge liker håndarbeid f.eks. 

Kommer litt an på hva man er uenige om, i noen situasjoner er uenigheten så alvorlig at man er uforenelige. 

[AnonymBruker]

16 minutter siden, Hodestups skrev:

Ja, selvsagt, men religionen er ganske viktig da den definerer deg som person (og her inkluderer jeg ateisme også). 

 

Ateisme er ingen religion, det er fravær av religion.

Anonymkode: 14540...2c2

[Hodestups]

6 minutter siden, AnonymBruker skrev:

Ateisme er ingen religion, det er fravær av religion.

Anonymkode: 14540...2c2

Nei Men de liker å tro det.

[AnonymBruker]

59 minutter siden, Hodestups skrev:

Nei Men de liker å tro det.

Du tar feil. Det er sikkert vanskelig for religiøse å forstå slikt. 

Anonymkode: 14540...2c2

[AnonymBruker]

1 minutt siden, AnonymBruker skrev:

Du tar feil. Det er sikkert vanskelig for religiøse å forstå slikt. 

Anonymkode: 14540...2c2

Hvorfor antar du at jeg er religiøs? For alt du vet kan jeg være ateist selv. Det vet du ikke.

A-teist, antiteist, betyr at de tror på fravær av en gud. Det betyr ikke at de ikke har en religion, ateisme oppfyller kriteriene for å bli sett på som en religion.

Atheism is the belief that there is no god. According to the Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy:

“Atheism is the position that affirms the non-existence of God. It proposes positive disbelief rather than mere suspension of belief.”¹

 

 

^{1. Narrative}

^{Every religion has its stories. Almost all religions have stories explaining where the universe came from and what humanity’s part in it is. Smart calls this Narrative.}

^{Narrative is a particularly important aspect of western Atheism. As the prominent Atheist Richard Dawkins said, referring to Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution:}

^{“Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist.”7}

^{Evolution is an explanation of where everything came from: the cosmos (came out of nothing at the big bang—nothing exploded and became everything); humans evolved from non-human creatures, hence humanity’s place in the cosmos is being just another species of animal. Some have gone so far as to say that humanity is a parasite on earth, and advocate killing up to 90% of humanity.8 There are some who attempt to combine belief in God with belief in evolution, not realizing the foundational nature of evolution’s connection to Atheism.9 The testimony of those who after learning about evolution in ‘science’ reject Christianity should alert church leaders to the incompatibility between evolution and the Gospel.}

^{2. Experiential}

^{There are two aspects to the experiential dimension. The first is the events experienced before someone founded a religion (for example the Disciples physically saw and touched the bodily resurrected Jesus). It is often asserted that Charles Darwin, after observing evidence from around the world during his voyage on HMS Beagle, developed the theory of evolution. (In reality, he had already learned a version of evolution from his grandfather Erasmus’s book Zoonomia and similar ideas were around at the time).}

^{According to the Humanist Manifesto II, the only meaning in life is what the person gives it.}

^{The second aspect of the experiential dimension concerns the experiences of latter adherents. Many people feel certain emotions when they participate in certain religious ceremonies. Atheists often believe that Atheism is freedom from religion, and some Atheists have reported feeling liberated after converting.10 Karl Marx said that the removal of the illusion of happiness by the removal of religion was a step towards true happiness. Atheistic denial of the divine entails denial of an afterlife. If there is no afterlife,11 then ultimately there is no higher purpose in life for Atheists than to be happy. According to the Humanist Manifesto II, the only meaning in life is what the person gives it. In the Humanist Manifesto III, this was changed to finding meaning in relationships. Belief in evolution also causes people to aim for self preservation and to spread their own genes.12}

^{Smart also seems to include ‘faith’ as part of the experiential dimension. The meaning of the word ‘faith’ is often twisted to make it mean things it does not. In Christianity, faith is logical, being defined in Hebrews 11:1 as “being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.” This is not blindly believing the impossible (which is how many Atheists define faith), but rather trusting the promises of God, whose past promises have all been fulfilled. I would classify Christian faith as part of the doctrinal dimension rather than experiential. On the other hand, Atheism requires ‘faith’ (using their own definition) that the laws of chemistry, physics and biology were once violated and life arose from non-life via chemical evolution.}

^{3. Social}

^{The social dimension of religion looks at the hierarchies and power structures present within the religion, such the Hindu caste system. In missionary religions, it also includes how people get converted and how missionaries go about their work.}

^{Contemporary Atheism has been fueled largely by authors promoting their Atheistic beliefs. In the preface to The God Delusion, Dawkins says,}

^{“If this book works as I intend, religious readers who open it will be atheists when they put it down.”}

^{Dawkins is saying he hopes that his book converts ‘religious’ people to his worldview—exactly what a missionary of any religion hopes to do.}

^{Communist countries often made the state religion Atheism, often to the point of persecuting (other) religions.13This followed from Karl Marx’s statement:}

^{“It [religion] is the opiate of the masses. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.”14}

^{Marxists saw the removal of religion as a step toward true happiness for the common people, although in practice this did not occur, and contemporary critics see Marxism itself as a religion15. (I would contend that Marxism is a sect of a larger religion: Atheism).}

^{Many scientists are high up on the social hierarchy of Atheism because their research enhances their understanding of the world. Particularly honoured are those scientists who write extensively about evolution. Because of this, many scientists include a little about evolution in their research papers, even when there is little or no relevance (one recent example concerns research into the chameleon’s catapult tongue and suction cap; see Created, not evolved)}

^{Atheism is also taught to children in many schools in science classes as evolution. As atheistic philosopher Michael Ruse admits, “evolution is a religion”, and it could be considered the narrative dimension of Atheism. Thus teaching evolution is teaching Atheism. Several Atheists even support teaching lies, as long as the end result is more children believing evolution.16}

^{4. Doctrinal}

^{Doctrines are the beliefs and philosophies that develop out of a religion (not necessarily being specifically stated in the religious narratives, etc). For example, the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, while not directly stated in the Bible, is logically derived from it.}

^{Contemporary Atheism gained popularity in the 18th and 19th centuries, after the ‘enlightenment’. In 1933, some prominent Atheist philosophers realised the effects the lack of a belief in a god would have on the morals of society and wrote what they believed would be a suitable set of beliefs and goals for a secular society in the 20th century. In doing so, they formed the branch of Atheism known as Secular Humanism. By and large, Atheists believe and adhere to the things written in the Humanist Manifesto, even if they don’t know the specifics of the document. After all, many Atheists do want to do what is good.}

^{The doctrines, ethics and goals outlined in the Humanist Manifesto, while being atheistic and accepting evolution as true, are opposite of what would be expected if they were solely derived from the evolutionary narrative. This is because Humanism also makes the assumption that humans are basically good.}

^{In 1973 however, the Humanist Manifesto was updated because of the atrocities that humans inflicted upon other humans during the intervening years (specifically mentioned are Nazism and communist police states).}

^{5. Ethical}

^{Atheism is a morally relativist religion. Most Atheists adhere to one ethical system or another, but in Atheism there is ultimately no foundation for morality, as atheists Dawkins and Provine admit. Many systems of ethics have been proposed; utilitarianism is probably the most popular one.}

^{Some people have taken a further step by creating ethical systems based on the evolutionary narrative and the principle of “survival of the fittest”. People who have lived by such principles include the perpetrators of the Columbine Massacre, the Jokela School Shooting in Finland, and on a much larger scale, the Nazis.}

^{Most people (Atheist or not) inherently know that systems that lead to such atrocities must be wrong, but Atheists cannot give a logical reason for why it is wrong. This contradiction was highlighted by Dawkins when he said “I’m a passionate Darwinian when it comes to science, when it comes to explaining the world, but I’m a passionate anti-Darwinian when it comes to morality and politics.” It was also graphically shown when two evolutionists wrote a book claiming that rape is an evolutionary mechanism to spread male genes—and see how one of them squirmed to justify why he agreed that rape is objectively wrong under his philosophy.}

^{A world governed purely by Atheistic, evolutionary ethics has been shown by history to be a horrible place to live. Most Atheists recognise this and choose to live by the ethical systems of other religions instead, or at the very least, live by the laws enforced by the government.}

^{6. Ritual}

^{Ritual is the only dimension which on the surface might appear to be absent from the religion of Atheism. In some religions, rituals have meanings attached to them, such as Passover commemorating the Israelites’ escape from Egypt. Because Atheism is a relatively recent movement, it doesn’t have much of a history to commemorate. In other religions, rituals such as sacrifices and dances are done to appease the gods or the spirits. Because Atheism denies the existence of gods and spirits, it doesn’t have the second type of ritual either. Many Atheists do practice ‘secular rituals’ such as their birthday celebrations, or the ‘ritual holidays’ of other religions such as the Christmas and Easter public holidays of Christianity, but this is usually to simply maintain the tradition of a public holiday, and the original meaning of the celebrations are rejected. It’s noteworthy that in recent years, the atheists’ public commemoration of the anniversary of Darwin’s birth each February (and even of the publication of his Origin of Species in November), along with calls for the general public to do the same, is rapidly becoming something of an annual ritual, even in some ‘churches’. One might even say that this modern Atheistic commemoration is being ‘celebrated’ with greater fervour and passion than many longstanding religious rituals.}

^{7. Material}

^{While Atheism by its nature of denying the divine can’t have objects that represent the divine (such as icons or idols), nature is treated as sacred by some Atheists in and of itself.}

^{The material dimension of religion, says Smart, includes all the physical things created by a religion such as art and buildings, and also natural features and places treated as sacred by adherents. While Atheism by its nature of denying the divine can’t have objects that represent the divine (such as icons or idols), nature is treated as sacred by some Atheists in and of itself.}

^{There are two extremes in the range of ideas held by Atheists on the ‘material’:}

^{natural resources are here to be exploited because of ‘survival of the fittest’ and humans are obviously the fittest species; or}

^{we should respect all of nature, particularly living things because to kill them is tantamount to murdering a cousin. This second view essentially holds that all life is ‘sacred’.}

^{Both ideas can be derived from the evolutionary narrative, but views tending towards the second idea are more prevalent than the views tending towards the first. But as G.K. Chesterton said a century ago:}

^{“Darwinism can be used to back up two mad moralities, but it cannot be used to back up a single sane one. The kinship and competition of all living creatures can be used as a reason for being insanely cruel or insanely sentimental; but not for a healthy love of animals. … The main point of Christianity was this: that Nature is not our mother: Nature is our sister. We can be proud of her beauty, since we have the same father; but she has no authority over us; we have to admire, but not to imitate.”}

^{An Atheist’s view of the material dimension is strongly influenced by their view of the ethical dimension.}

Anonymkode: e5be4...9bc

[Hodestups]

Ups, skulle ikke være anonym.

[Lillemus]

1 time siden, Betti 11 skrev:

Det er viktig å se menneske ikke religion. For meg er det veldig vanskelig med muslimer, fordi de har et helt annet syn i livet. Jeg kan ikke tenke meg å bli venn, men jeg behandler alle likt. Barna mi er venn med flere. Foreldrene er ikke interessert å ha kontakt. 

Å være venner er da ikke farlig.  Mine barn har også muslimske venner, men jentungen er svært klar på at noen muslimsk mann blir det ikke på henne. Traff venninnens foreldre på avslutning her om dagen og der bruker kvinnene og jentene hijab, men pappan kom da og rakte frem hånden, smilte blid og presenterte seg for meg. Ikke at vi har hatt noen omgang, men de er bare hyggelige.